Another Eden Wiki:Discussion on Potential Fork
I'm opening discussion on potentially moving to the Wiki to a self-host solution. I've spoken with voiddp about this decision, and we've decided to gauge community opinion.
The Wiki is a key resource to many players of the game for data and information. The recent Cargo downtime has caused confusion as well as concerns about the status of the Wiki. This is also not the first time we've faced issues with content suddenly being disabled due to extension issues or site downtime.
While Miraheze has been crucial in growing the Wiki to where it is today, these bouts of downtime or broken content severely hamper the Wiki. Understandably, Miraheze is a volunteer-run organization, and not only do the volunteers running Miraheze work hard in providing a free, functional, and ad-free Wiki platform, but they also maintain several thousands of Wikis on top of their own real-life matters. However after preliminary review, I feel we're at a point that we have enough community support, resources and funding to make the Another Eden Wiki better with having our own dedicated self-hosted Wiki.
Catalysts for Considering Forking
The recent Cargo downtime is the main catalyst for this consideration; however, this is not the first incident where an extension has been disabled on short notice causing content to break. I am not sure if this has changed, but Miraheze relies on upstream version changes in order for fixes to be deployed and do not currently have a way to easily apply hotfix patches. I'm sure there are valid technical, security and stability reasons, but it can lead to several days of content being left broken, potentially longer if there's ever an extension that may be slow-moving in its fix.
Site downtimes (503s) while usually short, can also be a mild annoyance and make the Wiki look unstable.
While these issues do not typically occur too often, it can still be considered a bit of a pain to deal with when you find your Wiki not working or have to suddenly look for workarounds if you want to get your content back online quickly.
Forking the Wiki means we will be spinning up our own server(s) to host the Wiki. Current outline of details includes:
- We would move to the new domain anothereden.wiki
- We would spin up new servers either on DigitalOcean or Vultr (Pending cost analysis)
- Existing Wiki users will need to recreate their accounts.
- New Wiki will need to rebuild SEO, but it helps that Miraheze has no policy against moving, so we should be able to link the old Wiki to the new one.
- Elaeagnifolia will be handling the backup and transfer of the Wiki to the new servers, as well as continued backend maintenance of said servers.
- Elaeagnifolia will be also be handling initial out-of-pocket expenses, as well as setting up donation avenues such as Patreon and Ko-Fi.
For a better picture of of costs and handling of costs, see the Dragalia Lost Wiki's server setup and finance breakdown, another Wiki that Elaeagnifolia runs.
The biggest obstacle here is mainly that the burden of server maintenance and cost moves to the Another Eden Wiki staff. There may also be potential hiccups at the start while we finetune/configure servers.
Votes and Discussion
For a read on how Wikipedia discussion and voting works, see Wikipedia:Consensus.
The following templates are available to express your support, opposition, or if you want to abstain/comment.
Option 1: Stay on Miraheze
Option 2: Move to Self-Host
- Support As the one suggesting this the fork, and for the reasons given above. I am fond of the Another Eden Wiki as the first Wiki I started on Miraheze and am grateful for Miraheze being a platform that could let the Wiki grow to where it is today. However, I think for the improvement and stability of the Wiki, I think it's a good time as any for the Wiki to start looking at more dedicated resources. Elaeagnifolia (talk) 16:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Strongest support Direct control of the resources to create the optimal experience for all users of the wiki is the most ideal solution with the only con being the direct costs and time to maintain and backup the wiki that are currently done by Miraheze volunteer staff instead. Since Miraheze staff's time will only be further diminished going forward as more wiki's are added, the timing seems right based on the maturity of both the wiki and the userbase! I support with my vote and my time as needed. MightyProphet (talk) 17:29, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Strongest support As someone who helped in the initial setup of this wiki, as well as someone who recently returned to the game, I have a personal investment in wanting this wiki to be functional and accessible for everyone, including all the information on it. The recent disabling of Cargo has been crippling, and the fact that we cannot guarantee a quick turnaround for fixes, as well as those fixes being outside our control, is just not acceptable anymore. I appreciate everything we've gotten from Miraheze over the years but at this point I feel it's time we move on. It would of course also free up Miraheze volunteers from needing to worry about us too. I have confidence in Elae's capability to self host, as I've worked with her on the aforementioned Dragalia wiki too. I'm also willing and able to help with funding and technical matters, should it ever come to that, for the reference of anyone coming to read this and who is undecided. Sei (talk) 18:07, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Strongest oppose I think this is very unnecessary. I understand and appreciate what you'd be willing to do to get us off the ground if we moved, but I don't like the idea of the cost burden on yourself and the community. Issues with Miraheze outside of this cargo outage have been minor in my experience and it doesn't seem like we should expect something of this magnitude to reoccur frequently. Bamiji (talk) 18:26, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Weak support i agree with Bamiji about cost burden to you, and if it is necessary to move once for the common good. I thought there would be no problem, If the problem wasn't so difficult maybe I would choose to stay on this website. If there is something the community can help, we will definitely help Kalliskivi (talk) 8:33 AM, 15 July 2022 (UTC+7)
- Support Since the other major AE wiki, Altema, is in Japanese, the Miraheze wiki is pretty much the only resource for Global players. For the silent majority of players that are not in the Discord server, site downtime becomes much more than an inconvenience. The extended downtime because of Cargo issues means it is probably time for us to self-host. Raidsmash (talk) 3:50 AM, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support I am somewhat conflicted but ready to try and participate.
- With miraheze there already were few interactions of several plugins functionality removal, that lead to broken pages, and remaking things just to fix them back. Also on my memory at least 2 times they lowered cpu\scripts time page-limits, that each time broke some of our biggest generated table pages at that moment. So I would want for our wiki to not depend on some global technical decisions made without us, and slower backend support than what we are ready to do ourselves.
- On the other hand - servers funding stability in the long term. I never participated in community funded projects so can't estimate if we will pull it off with 50-70$ per month costs like dragalialost example, hopefully we will but i still worry.Voiddp (talk) 08:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Weak support If we could find a solution to the funding I would be all for it, but everyone on reddit saying they would give the money, I dont personally know these people so in the end I dont know how reliable they gonna, worst comes to worst everyone will bail after a month and then elaeagnifolia will be left with all of the expenses for the following months, I dont think thats fair either.--Laelia (talk) 21:05, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support i am all in. If change needs to happen, then let's go for it! ~Sean, 19:37, 16 july 2022
- Support While I'm not crazy about the idea of everything having to move, I do see why it could be necessary. I'm not a huge contributor to the wiki having only really uploaded sprites and made minor edits, but I do reference the wiki frequently and I can't even say how frustrating this recent downtime has been just trying to check minor things that have been difficult to look up elsewhere. If the database issue were to continue to pop up going down the line, then I don't feel like that's acceptable. It seems like the fixes for this particular problem have been a rather big undertaking, and I'd hate for the team to have to undergo something of that sort again. I do have some questions, though, that might be helpful in understanding the situation more fully, so I'll ask those in the other comments section. -- Also, some of you may be aware that my health has gotten pretty bad in the past few months, so unless I get some disability approval soon, I won't be able to commit to assisting with the financial burden of the move, which makes me feel a little guilty about supporting the change... but I do have a willing spirit when it comes to helping out! I can donate when I'm able and I will do my best whatever the decision! And while I might not be of any monetary value at the moment, I'm glad to offer more of my time to helping out here as well. Opalescent Eyes (talk) 14:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Strongest support the sooner we move, the better. i mean we can use the fitur again. this error makes people lose their grip on this game (especially me) Kalizen (talk) 07:21, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- Weak support As I don't have an account here, am only a user of the wiki, and could only contribute financially every few months if moved, I feel it would be most appropriate for me to indicate weak support. All I can really go by is how usable the wiki is atm, and it's a struggle. If a move would get everything functioning properly again, I'm for it. I appreciate that this comment might look dubious, so decision makers are more than welcome to message me via Reddit to verify. 188.8.131.52 13:59, 22 July 2022 (UTC) (u/asarahlouise)
- Support Hi, just another user here as well. I support this as it is the most guaranteed way back to a useable state, though I understand it is a route with the most effort as well. Since I have been a quiet leecher all these time I want to put my money where my mouth is and pledge $10 monthly. I see from Elaeagnifolia's info that this will cover 1/6? of the monthly operating cost. Please help me out with some ideas on how I can prove to the community that I am real and sincere. Perhaps I can donate towards miraheze first and shift the donation over if the migration happens? 15:16 30/07/22 Regards, cloudzero37
- Weak support While I am only a casual editor, and would support having a reliable website uptime, I am not confident that the funding can be sustained by the community. Kelven99874 (talk) 18:38, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Feel free to leave any addition comments below.
- What does the work load look like for the change over to self-hosting solution? And the work load for the current Miraheze fix? How long would the switch over take, approximately? Would the wiki for sure be without database restrictions, or is there an even better solution by just being self-hosted? The solutions in the works now for Miraheze - are they a permanent solution or will we just have to wait and see how it goes? The database was the cause of the critical load, correct? But the database itself was really helpful to the editors and the community, correct? I'm just trying to make sure I understand the situation as best I can. Opalescent Eyes (talk) 14:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- If Miraheze does not reactivate the database, all data would have to be input manually. This is a higher workload for all editors, and also results in inconsistencies if data needs to be changed. It's also just better practice to use a database, to manage large amounts of data. Manual inputs just are not scalable and they're quite repetitive and don't result in as clean code for editors to work with. My understanding is that the database was disabled due to server performance. On Miraheze we will always have to worry about this because we, the editors and viewers of this wiki, are not the ones who control the server. This means if we fork, we can use the database again. Additionally, it means if more server resources must be allocated, they easily can be, without worrying about a 3rd party's opinion, nor their financial bottom line. Remember that Miraheze is a group of volunteers. While of course we the wiki editors are as well, the key difference is that we have a personal desire to see this wiki's contents be the best they can be, because we are the ones invested in the game it's about. So we are free to do what we need to from a technical standpoint in order to make the wiki into the best experience possible for both editors and viewers. Sei (talk) 17:43, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Have you thought about using a different solution such as cloud using some other platform such as Microsoft Azure where you can easily upgrade or downgrade with a click of a button? Being in the cloud will take away the need to maintain hardware and using a company like Microsoft can keep the server up basically 24/7.If there is too much load on one server, you can spin up a new virtual server with the click of a button. You can add RAM, processing power, and etc. Of course you will have to pay more when increasing the power, but you could go back down when there is less volume of visitors. Being a non-profit and not making over a million US dollars, you can use their tools like Visual Studio 2022 Community for free to develop on the Azure platform. I've been in the IT field for about 17 years and the Fortune 500 company I currently work for uses cloud based solutions from both Microsoft and Amazon. We are using less on-Premisis servers and are transitioning over a 1000 servers to Virtual cloud based servers. I am also a player of Another Eden. Thanks. WhiteWing 13 Aug 2022